Amit Shah interview: ‘The most important explanation of Mandate 2024 will be the people’s belief that the road the country is on is the right one’

Above 272?

Amit Shah: We are somewhere between 300 and 310… this is minus the last phase… We are in a comfortable position. This time, we went to the people with 10 years of track record and 25 years of a powerfully positive agenda.

In the beginning, there was a consensus that this is a boring election, a done deal. Over the last month, it seems there is a hawa from the Opposition’s side too… The Opposition is putting up a spirited fight.

We will know about that once the verdict comes in.

How is the Amit Shah campaign in 2024 different from the Amit Shah campaign in 2019?

Shah: I have travelled across India. Barring Ladakh, I have been in every state, every UT… In 2019, there was a feeling in the people that the nation had benefited from a decisive government, a decisive leader, and the fact that what Modi was doing was good – all these three. In 2024, the feeling is that this is the route to take towards making India a great nation. A self-confidence has taken hold. For any nation, its public’s samoohik atmavishwas (collective self-confidence) is the reason behind the nation’s development. There is also the samoohik sankalp (collective determination) of 130 crore people. And Modiji has tapped into both by framing them as Amrit Mahotsav… All children who will grow up over the next 30 years have this determination and confidence that India can do it. I think this is a huge achievement for the nation. You will look for countless reasons to explain the mandate but the most important one will be the people’s belief that the road the country is on is the right one.

But there has also been a certain uncertainty of late. We saw some of it reflected in the markets that got rattled, and then rose after the RBI declared a record Rs 2 lakh crore dividend. There were many voices saying that the BJP’s numbers may not add up.

Amit Shah: I don’t respond to rumours, you will see the results. If there is a result that’s better than the first two phases, it will be our result of Phase 4. Our best results will be in Phase 1 and Phase 2.

So why this uncertainty?

Amit Shah: I think a big section of the media still doesn’t accept us, the BJP… the ecosystem which you are also a part of. There should be no political leader without an ideology and there should be no journalist with an ideology. Just the opposite has happened. Journalists are the ones with ideology and leaders are the ones without ideology.

Who are the parties or leaders today without any ideology?

Shah: It’s your job to find out, ask them about their ideology. Our ideology is in the open. These (the Congress) are the same people who ran a stable government for years, and now they talk of mili-juli sarkar. Is a stable government not Constitutionally mandated? A stable government strengthens the nation, it raises India’s reach and prestige in the world.

Travelling across the country, we heard several voices raising concerns on unemployment.

Unfortunately, people have linked rozgar to a government job, not just a job but a government job. This 130 crore population, it’s impossible for any government to give everyone a job. Unfortunately, some are spreading this bhram (illusion)… 1.17 lakh start-ups have been launched, take an average of five people per start-up, doesn’t this generate jobs? 47 crore people have got Mudra loans for self-employment – this is not a big amount, up to Rs 20 lakh – but for Rs 20 lakh, you can generate decent self-employment. These are new loans. As many as 85 lakh street vendors have got Swanidhi loans, their guarantor is Modi. The Mudra loans add up to about Rs 27.75 lakh crore. Don’t these generate jobs? I checked NPAs of these, and 99.5% don’t have any. In 2016-17, unemployment rate was 6.1 per cent, in 2023, it’s 3.3 per cent. Then, several avenues have opened up.

Manmohan Singh left an infrastructure budget of Rs 4 lakh crore, Modi ramped it up to 11.80 lakh crore. With that kind of expenditure, jobs will be generated. The 75 airports are up to 150, doesn’t that generate jobs? But no one counts these. Our speed in making roads has increased manifold, same with Railways. We have laid down 22,000 km of transmission lines in the first seven years – I haven’t counted the last three — doesn’t that generate jobs?

Rahulji talks about this government being a government of five billionaires, actually it was like that during his (the Congress’s) time. During his time, there were 2.22 crore demat accounts, these are accounts where benefits of industrial development accrue; today, we have 15 crore demat accounts. These 13 crore (additional) people will be earning something, no? During his time, our market cap was Rs 85 lakh crore, today it is Rs 500 lakh crore, the gains from here have been distributed into demat accounts.

But in parallel, we also have lakhs of young men and women sitting for entrance exam tests for a very, very small number of seats for government jobs. How will that change?

Amit Shah: This will change as we move ahead on the road we have taken… take the 13 crore who have come to the market, many of them may not need to take the exam. Someone gets a job in a solar company, he or she doesn’t need to take the exam. This will take time.

We hear this in many villages. People say we have PM Awas, Ayushman, now we need naukri… In the same family or colony, we hear elders saying we will vote for the BJP but we aren’t sure of the young. And when asked why, they say unemployment.

The BJP will get the highest vote share among the young, take it from me. I have come back after contesting an election.

But even in the middle class, there is a concern that today’s college degrees are not equipping graduates with employable skills.

Amit Shah: Don’t link education with employment. When we talk of swarozgar (self-employment), then any kind of education helps develop critical skills that you need.

Can’t there be an initiative cutting across party lines to address this?

Amit Shah: Let’s not get into that right now. Aaj desh mein aisa vatavaran nahin hai (Today, the atmosphere isn’t conducive for this). There is an absence of discussion in Parliament. On all controversial legislation or issues, be it Article 370, CAA, I have replied to every question raised, joined debates, but I feel pained that there’s no discussion, that Parliament is treated in so cavalier a manner.

Why this bitterness between the Treasury benches and the Opposition?

Amit Shah: In my opinion, it’s after the entry of Rahul Gandhi in the party that the Congress’s behaviour has changed, the standards of politics have fallen after that.

Can you elaborate?

Amit Shah: Just look up the reasons for boycotting Parliament over the last 20 years. They find excuses to exit Parliament. Earlier, there were events that triggered boycotts and even that boycott was for a few days… I have never seen the Prime Minister replying to the President’s address and you continuously disrupting him for an hour-and-a-half. He is the Prime Minister because the people of the country have given him that mandate, you are disrespecting not Narendra Modi but the Constitutional system.

You referred to Rahul Gandhi. At one time, there was a perception among a section that he was a lightweight. We tracked his yatras, talked to several people along the way. There is a distinct shift in public perception about his image… How do you view this?

Amit Shah: My view is of no significance in this. I believe that anyone who is thoughtful, thinks with seriousness, is worthy of being welcomed by the nation.

“I have travelled across India. Barring Ladakh, I have been in every state, every UT… In 2019, there was a feeling in the people that the nation had benefited from a decisive government, a decisive leader, and the fact that what Modi was doing was good – all these three,” Shah said. (PTI)

Discussion in Parliament is crucial but Opposition leaders are suspended from the House; Rahul Gandhi is disqualified from Parliament over a campaign speech.

Amit Shah: The (suspension) happened because they didn’t let Parliament function… The disqualification was a court process. If the court punishes him, should he get special treatment? The day the court stayed that, he was back in Parliament the very next day. This is the law, the law that they brought in, not us.

You have said that the people of India will decide what kind of an Opposition they need…

Amit Shah: This is natural, the people of the country will decide on who and how many will be in the Opposition, that’s what our Constitution says.

Of the 542, if BJP gets the seats you estimate, 300 plus, does this mean that the people don’t want an Opposition?

Amit Shah: But you cannot decide on the Opposition, the people have to decide that.

Publicly, you have referred to a Congress-mukt Bharat. Is that good for the country?

Amit Shah: Whenever I say Congress-mukt Bharat, I say that in terms of ideology. But even that (ideology) isn’t there (in the Congress) now.

You do accept that a strong Opposition is good for the country?

Amit Shah: Yes, I accept that, but it’s the janata (people) who will decide that. We cannot create it. And it cannot happen because you wish it to happen.

Another refrain in some sections of voters – this includes those who say they will vote for the BJP – is that ‘Uss taraf kaun hai?’. The TINA (There is no alternative) factor. That the lack of a counter to Modi is also a reason why the BJP gets votes.

The Opposition’s weakness has nothing to do with the Prime Minister’s sense of mission for the nation. There are countless reasons why he is so popular. From raising the standard of living of 60 crore people in 10 years; empowering them with a house, toilet, water, a Rs-5 lakh insurance scheme, 5-kg foodgrains, gas cylinder… Modiji has helped build self-confidence and self-determination. The day Corona was identified, Prime Minister Modi decided on the vaccine mission, used technology to protect 132 crore people. Elsewhere, even in advanced nations, the fight against Corona sputtered because there the government fought while here the government and the people fought together.

On the economy, look at the parameters: From PSU balance sheets to controlling inflation and deficit; the rising stock market to building India as a manufacturing hub; our initiatives in green hydrogen and EVs, batteries, solar, ethanol, green fuel, we are pushing at the frontiers. Take space, electronics, defence manufacturing – all these help generate jobs too.

There is a perception of concentration of power in the way the BJP government functions as it bids for a third term.

Amit Shah: The Constitution has a provision for a Cabinet, why is that? It’s there for a purpose, otherwise we could discuss everything among 542 people. Can a country run on this principle? Cabinet, PM, all these institutions have been imagined and are there, not because of us, but the Constituent Assembly. They have lost and that’s why they don’t like any of this now. Wasn’t there concentration of power under Indiraji and Nehruji? At that time, they became presidents of their parties too. The party president would chant ‘Indira is India, and India is Indira’ and no one flagged it then.

It was, indeed, strongly criticised.

Amit Shah: Very few people criticised it. All this criticism has gathered pace since 2014.

The Jammu and Kashmir turnouts, almost five years after the abrogation of Article 370, have been very impressive…

Amit Shah: I had anticipated this and said this in Parliament; now no one remembers the ‘J&K Constitution’, the ‘J&K flag’.

Should the BJP have contested elections in Kashmir this time?

Amit Shah: For the BJP, contesting elections in Kashmir is not of any great significance.

Why is that?

Amit Shah: For 70 years, because of wrong policies, a demand was sustained to declare a big section of India independent of India. That ended, that is of significance to us; for you, the significant question may be why did the BJP not contest. For 70 years, because of wrong policies, such a large section of India was wracked by terror and violence. Look at the result of the strong PM and the government. There were calls for azadi here, now these calls are there (in Pakistan); there was stoning here, now it’s happening there. You have to accept that, even those who thought that those policies were right.

How confident are you of Assembly elections in J&K then?

Amit Shah: It’s not a question of confidence, I have said in Parliament that elections will be held.

In September, that’s what the CEC also said… So elections will be held in September?

Yes, yes.

Caste has entered the election discourse. There is a debate on reservations, there is a fear voiced by sections of Dalits that the Constitution will be changed, that their reservations may go. How did this become an issue?

Amit Shah: A few of you and Rahul Gandhi think this is an issue, no one else. This is common sense. We have been in power for 10 years and we had the numbers. If we had to do it, we would have done it. We used our absolute majority to remove Article 370, 35 A, to remove terrorism, to end Naxalism, to build the Ram Temple and to bring about a change in the lives of 60 crore people. That’s how we have used our absolute majority. The Congress got an absolute majority during Indiraji’s time, she used it to bring the Emergency and put 1.30 lakh people in jail, decide what editorials would be run in the newspapers. This is not our party’s history, this is the history of Rahul Gandhi’s party. Who are they to lecture us?

Removing Dalit reservations may be a stretch, but there are genuine concerns about other aspects of changes in the Constitution: the Preamble, for example; the word secular; basic structure…

Amit Shah: For 10 years, we had the numbers to bring about these changes. There is no reason at all to suspect our intentions.

Judicial and police reforms have been on hold for the last 10 years… The National Judicial Appointments Commission Bill, 2014, (that gave the government a virtual veto in judicial appointments) was struck down by the Supreme Court in 2015. Are you looking at a new version of the NJAC Bill?

Amit Shah: We haven’t had any structured deliberations on this. But if any challenge comes up, the government takes an initiative responding to that.

The BJP has evolved, from the Brahmin-Bania party it once was seen to be, to including a sweeping range of sections of the society. So why still no outreach to the Muslims? There isn’t a single Muslim BJP member…

Amit Shah: I don’t believe in appeasement. None of our schemes is based on religion, we haven’t discriminated against anyone.

But there is a sense of insecurity in the community, of feeling unwanted. Is there an outreach?

Amit Shah: What we are doing is right, we are touching everyone with our anti-poverty schemes. We are already reaching out… not ‘reach’ as per your definition. There will be no appeasement, no injustice with anyone.

You talked of the significant movement forward in Jammu and Kashmir. What about Manipur?

Amit Shah: Manipur’s violence is neither terrorism nor communal, it’s ethnic violence. To end this, the road is a long one because to restore trust between the two communities — that has been eroded because of some events – is a time-taking process. Because of elections, there are statements from both sides, Kukis and Meiteis, that derail this process. So we will get to this after the elections.

You visited Manipur and spent four days there. You think the PM should have gone? Why didn’t he? Was it because the Opposition kept underlining this?

Amit Shah: I am a representative of the Prime Minister and what’s happening there comes under my Ministry.

You don’t think the PM’s visit, his speech would have been a healing touch?

Amit Shah: The Prime Minister is continuously and closely monitoring it.

You mentioned success against Naxalism?

Amit Shah: Today, it’s confined to three districts; the fight slowed down during five years of Congress rule in Chhattisgarh. In the five months since we have been there, 125 Naxalites have been killed, 350 have surrendered, 250 have been arrested. Naxalism won’t live for more than two years.

You clarified on the 75-age issue, that it doesn’t apply to the Prime Minister. It doesn’t apply to others in the party, too?

Amit Shah: First, there are no rules like this. Certain decisions were made in a certain situation, when that situation doesn’t exist, those rules aren’t there. I will make it clear that, even in 2029, the Prime Minister will lead us.

By most accounts, your vote share is going to increase in the South. If you get a third term, what’s expected on delimitation?

Amit Shah: We have already said that there will be no injustice with the South after delimitation. We have to discover ways. I have made a statement in Parliament.

You won’t defer it like Atal Behari Vajpayee did for 20 years?

Amit Shah: No. I have said that there won’t be any anyay (injustice) with the South, that is the BJP’s decision. How we do it, we will sit down with everyone and discuss. We will not defer delimitation.

Maharashtra, what happened in 2019, if you could turn the clock back, would you do things differently?

But we were the ones at the receiving end. After the 2019 elections, when the Assembly elections happened, we got a majority. Sharad Pawar took our friend, Uddhavji (Thackeray), away. He was our friend, we had fought elections as an alliance. Whoever started this will have to end it. No moral questions, issues of ethics were raised at that time, you have double standards as a journalist community.

Can you take Uddhav back?

Amit Shah: have an alliance and it’s working well.

There are unending stand-offs between non-BJP CMs and their Governors: Pinarayi Vijayan and Arif Mohd Khan in Kerala; Mamata Banerjee and C V Ananda Bose in West Bengal; L-G V K Saxena and Arvind Kejriwal in Delhi. This daily tu-tu main-main, how do you see this tension playing out?

On the CM-Governor issue, wherever there is a problem, we have intervened. If you enact legislation that’s against the Constitution and you say that the Governor is not clearing it, that can’t happen. The University Grants Commission issued a circular making Governors Vice Chancellors, you pass a law that Governors can’t be Vice Chancellors… you won’t let them go to the university.

You have commented on the role of Central agencies when it comes to going easy on politicians who have joined the BJP. In the Ajit Pawar case, for example, the Economic Offences Wing files a closure report, then takes it back, depending on which party he is aligned to.

I have studied this particular case. When a case is registered, there are four-five cases, one is corruption; one is misuse of power; one is on administrative loopholes; one is with tampering of proof. When the main case is chargesheeted, all these four cases are weaved in. No one talks of the main chargesheet but raises the issue of the four cases being wound up.

(The Indian Express reported that Mumbai EOW filed two closure reports in the case over the years. It has never chargesheeted Ajit Pawar. The ED filed three chargesheets in the case and Ajit Pawar is not listed as an accused in any.)

So you are saying that the case of each of those who have joined the BJP will follow due process?

Amit Shah: Each case will follow due process.

If there is a third term, which Ministry will you head?

Amit Shah: Narendra bhai will decide, it’s not in my hands. I will do whatever the party asks of me.